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Lance of Llanwyln
Jun 11, 2008

GIVE ME MORE
SUPER BOWL
WINS


pmchem posted:

The new Custodian team is exactly what Stellaris needs and I'm happy the dev team / mgmt is supporting that initiative.

It's unclear from the dev diary "how much" of the Stellaris team's resources / time is being devoted to it. I hope it's more than 25% (heck, I hope it's more than 50%, but, wishful thinking). I look forward to their first big set of results.
I would guess it's substantial right now, as they're pitching Lem as being pretty ambitious(including reworking policy trees) but I imagine it will be less when they're just working primarily on bug fixes and teaching the AI not to put its pants in the sewer before eating them.

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Anno
May 10, 2017

I'm going to drown! For no reason at all!

Was this posted yet?

https://twitter.com/Moah3/status/1400482932867964928

Libluini
May 18, 2012

Did I predict the future?


Grimey Drawer

Darkrenown posted:

I always have a mixed fleet because it feels right to me, although Cruisers do stop being line fighters when I can afford enough Battleships. Sometimes I even make multiple designs of the same type, such as Swarm/Picket/Torpedo Corvettes and Picket/Artillery Destroyers + Line/Carrier Battleships. Sure Corvettes get some attrition but for the most part you can just hit the reinforce button and they'll sort themselves out, and if I have a Juggernaut there's a shipyard along to replace them almost instantly. I normally try to grab systems with Gateways to build my shipyards in if possible too, so reinforcements can start using them as soon as I learn how to use them.

I'll also sometimes have an all Corvette or Corvette/Destroyer fast reaction fleet for catching enemies in a messy border situation. If you are The Crisis then the Menacing ships are especially good for this.

If you want to, or enjoy, have the optimal fleet composition then of course follow the meta, but it's worth noting that you'll probably be fine building whatever you like, at least until a FE awakens or the Crisis hits - but even then it depends. I generally pick a theme for my fleet when I start a game and try to roll with that, although I might change it if I get Null Void beams (my one added weapon!) or Mining Lasers etc, or I may refit to deal with a specific Leviathan if I need to deal with them early.

Count me in on the side of the Mixed Fleet Lovers. I'm always organically growing my fleets across the game, with my swarm of corvettes getting a bunch of destroyers as "flagships", then next I'll dial up the number of support destroyers when cruisers are invented, and then finally, I'll mix battleships into the fleet. After that, sometimes with new poo poo being invented, I'll sometimes add new battleship types, and if my society research can't keep up with my growing fleets, I'll sometimes reduce the number of cruisers, destroyers or corvettes to fit a couple newer battleship classes in.

The basic principles of my fleets are:

-All three types of corvettes, set to swarm only. Either they keep enemy light ships busy, or they'll swarm bigger ships. If the latter happens, missiles and strike craft trying to get out of that adorable ball of doom have a bad time, due to the tiny balls being absolute clusterfucks.

-A mix of destroyers, with PD-destroyers getting more numerous the more heavier ships I later add. The other classes tend to have a mix of medium/small weapons to deal with enemy light ships. Set to line, so now after enemy light ships/fighters/missiles have successfully left my corvette ball behind, they now have to cross this bunch of stroppy destroyers on their way to my capital ships. And they get hosed up a second time.

-The capital lines: Cruisers are all set to artillery, since they're primarily carrying long-range weapons. There's generally a long-range class, a missile class and a carrier class, they're all set to artillery so they can hang around each other. And now, after enemy missiles/etc. have crossed my line of destroyers, they'll now get hit again by my own cruiser strike craft and their PD-turrets. At this point, this works so well I sometimes can leave adding battleships for later.

-Battleships are also all in my artillery line. Since most of my battleships tend to have some medium weapons as support, ships trying to get close to them will have a bad time. And all the medium/light weapons carried by my cruisers are also there. So while the heavy weapons bombard enemy capitals, lighter ships get chewed up and spit out if they even get this far.

-Proper carriers with their three full squadrons are set to "carrier", since this moves them so far away from the battle lines, they only ever tend to get hit if every single other ship in my fleet is already dead. If they get targeted, it's often only by poo poo like enemy fighters or torpedoes. But uh oh, carriers also have four spots for point defense, and a mix of PD and flak plus all those fighters tends to make them mostly immune against everything not a gun.

As wild as that sounds, it mows down enemy fleets pretty regularly. Cruisers and battleships only tend to die very rarely, or only after all the light ships protecting them are gone, so I don't have to wait tons of time after each battle for new big ships to finish: The shipyards I tend to place all over my borders can generally spit out hundreds of corvettes and destroyers in short order, so even heavy losses can be replaced with a single click and waiting a bit after a major battle.

It's pretty sweet!

LonsomeSon
Nov 22, 2009

A fishperson in an intimidating hat!


Thus far my three different starts since 3.0 have uniformly indicated that Strike Craft Are Sick As gently caress, and brawling Space Amoeba-carrier* cruisers backed up by large-mount destroyers will ruin any AI empire’s entire day

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE



Yes thank you, these are the kind of changes I was hoping for, it was always annoying to queue a bunch of anchorages for example, and being unable to put the anchorages improving building in the queue as well.

Captain Monkey
Aug 23, 2007



Libluini posted:

Count me in on the side of the Mixed Fleet Lovers. I'm always organically growing my fleets across the game, with my swarm of corvettes getting a bunch of destroyers as "flagships", then next I'll dial up the number of support destroyers when cruisers are invented, and then finally, I'll mix battleships into the fleet. After that, sometimes with new poo poo being invented, I'll sometimes add new battleship types, and if my society research can't keep up with my growing fleets, I'll sometimes reduce the number of cruisers, destroyers or corvettes to fit a couple newer battleship classes in.

The basic principles of my fleets are:

-All three types of corvettes, set to swarm only. Either they keep enemy light ships busy, or they'll swarm bigger ships. If the latter happens, missiles and strike craft trying to get out of that adorable ball of doom have a bad time, due to the tiny balls being absolute clusterfucks.

-A mix of destroyers, with PD-destroyers getting more numerous the more heavier ships I later add. The other classes tend to have a mix of medium/small weapons to deal with enemy light ships. Set to line, so now after enemy light ships/fighters/missiles have successfully left my corvette ball behind, they now have to cross this bunch of stroppy destroyers on their way to my capital ships. And they get hosed up a second time.

-The capital lines: Cruisers are all set to artillery, since they're primarily carrying long-range weapons. There's generally a long-range class, a missile class and a carrier class, they're all set to artillery so they can hang around each other. And now, after enemy missiles/etc. have crossed my line of destroyers, they'll now get hit again by my own cruiser strike craft and their PD-turrets. At this point, this works so well I sometimes can leave adding battleships for later.

-Battleships are also all in my artillery line. Since most of my battleships tend to have some medium weapons as support, ships trying to get close to them will have a bad time. And all the medium/light weapons carried by my cruisers are also there. So while the heavy weapons bombard enemy capitals, lighter ships get chewed up and spit out if they even get this far.

-Proper carriers with their three full squadrons are set to "carrier", since this moves them so far away from the battle lines, they only ever tend to get hit if every single other ship in my fleet is already dead. If they get targeted, it's often only by poo poo like enemy fighters or torpedoes. But uh oh, carriers also have four spots for point defense, and a mix of PD and flak plus all those fighters tends to make them mostly immune against everything not a gun.

As wild as that sounds, it mows down enemy fleets pretty regularly. Cruisers and battleships only tend to die very rarely, or only after all the light ships protecting them are gone, so I don't have to wait tons of time after each battle for new big ships to finish: The shipyards I tend to place all over my borders can generally spit out hundreds of corvettes and destroyers in short order, so even heavy losses can be replaced with a single click and waiting a bit after a major battle.

It's pretty sweet!

Are you me exactly?

Lawman 0
Aug 17, 2010





The real sicko option would be both an accurate empire wide pop count and kill count .

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

Yes, it's like a lava lamp.



The only thing I want from the fleet designer is an Artillery Combat Computer that lets me select the range correctly (that range being 120), so that I can build even better Artillery Battleship fleets.

scaterry
Sep 12, 2012



If you swap the order, then delete the trade hub build order, you could build a lonely offworld trading company. which is… completely useless, lmao

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

scaterry posted:

If you swap the order, then delete the trade hub build order, you could build a lonely offworld trading company. which is… completely useless, lmao

depends if they stop you from building a building without the prereqs somehow

Staltran
Jan 3, 2013



Fallen Rib

PittTheElder posted:

The only thing I want from the fleet designer is an Artillery Combat Computer that lets me select the range correctly (that range being 120), so that I can build even better Artillery Battleship fleets.

Sapient artillery combat computers have +20% range, so that should probably be 144. But even then you could easily want 180 (sapient combat computer, cautious synth admiral) instead. Ideally it'd just be the lowest range of all weapons on the ship (after modifiers).

Gort
Aug 18, 2003



This is the exact kind of poo poo this game needs. Although, it would be even better if you could design a starbase template and build the whole thing in one go.

Let me build a 40-army invasion force with three clicks please

Splicer
Oct 16, 2006

from hell's heart I stab at thee



e: I am never satisfied so also make queueing up a station upgrade or a city also unlock slots

Splicer fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Jun 6, 2021

Splicer
Oct 16, 2006

from hell's heart I stab at thee

scaterry posted:

If you swap the order, then delete the trade hub build order, you could build a lonely offworld trading company. which is… completely useless, lmao
https://twitter.com/Moah3/status/1400494101578014720

Darkrenown
Jul 18, 2012

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new DLC tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

Not sure if it's known, but PDT is personal development time, so good guy Moah is doing a little extra work on Stellaris there.

I saw a while back Moah was no longer Stellaris Tech lead and is now on a secret project according to his twitter bio! I have to assume it's a new series since all the other titles are known now and I would assume EU5 would be in the Barcelona studio so it is likely be something else.

Splicer
Oct 16, 2006

from hell's heart I stab at thee

Darkrenown posted:

Not sure if it's known, but PDT is personal development time, so good guy Moah is doing a little extra work on Stellaris there.

I saw a while back Moah was no longer Stellaris Tech lead and is now on a secret project according to his twitter bio! I have to assume it's a new series since all the other titles are known now and I would assume EU5 would be in the Barcelona studio so it is likely be something else.
That's triply awesome

pmchem
Jan 21, 2010




Darkrenown posted:

Not sure if it's known, but PDT is personal development time, so good guy Moah is doing a little extra work on Stellaris there.

I saw a while back Moah was no longer Stellaris Tech lead and is now on a secret project according to his twitter bio! I have to assume it's a new series since all the other titles are known now and I would assume EU5 would be in the Barcelona studio so it is likely be something else.

probably just Stellaris 2

makes sense with Stellaris drifting toward "Custodian" mode

Darkrenown
Jul 18, 2012

The level of betrayal I felt when Paradox announced their new DLC tore something from me that I'll never be able to recover. They tore away my ability to respect anything, and they tore away my ability to feel human.

pmchem posted:

probably just Stellaris 2

makes sense with Stellaris drifting toward "Custodian" mode

I guess it's possible, but it seems early to me. Stellaris is still getting new content as well as the custodian thing.

pmchem
Jan 21, 2010




Darkrenown posted:

I guess it's possible, but it seems early to me. Stellaris is still getting new content as well as the custodian thing.

stellaris came out in 2016. assume a 3 year dev cycle for S2. that’s a 2024 release, 8 years between titles, same gap as CK2 and CK3.

LordMune
Nov 21, 2006

Helim needed to be invisible.


Stellaris is and has been scaling up, not down. A good chunk of that is just to keep pace with changing structures and workflows, but it should tell you something about where priorities are at right now.

pmchem
Jan 21, 2010




hmm, if that signals S2 is not yet in planning, quite interesting. I do like the custodian plans, as I noted earlier in thread.

Anno
May 10, 2017

I'm going to drown! For no reason at all!

LordMune posted:

Stellaris is and has been scaling up, not down. A good chunk of that is just to keep pace with changing structures and workflows, but it should tell you something about where priorities are at right now.

Can you talk at all about how this is set up? Like was this splitting the current team into two parts? Or hiring/shifting around to make the Custodian team? Both?

Between this and CK3 it seems like PDS is staffing up a bit internally for ongoing development.

Fur20
Nov 14, 2007

すご▞い!
君は働か░い
フ▙▓ズなんだね!


how do i beat AIs that corvette spam in the mid game? i stop building corvettes and make bigger ships by the midgame but i attacked a fairly small and weak empire (on paper) and then they showed up with 200 fuckin t2 corvettes which completely shredded my t5 fleet

and this is on captain with low AI aggressiveness!

Fur20 fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Jun 6, 2021

Splicer
Oct 16, 2006

from hell's heart I stab at thee

More carriers

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

Fur20 posted:

how do i beat AIs that corvette spam in the mid game? i stop building corvettes and make bigger ships by the midgame but i attacked a fairly small and weak empire (on paper) and then they showed up with 200 fuckin t2 corvettes which completely shredded my t5 fleet

and this is on captain with low AI aggressiveness!

fight them in a chokepoint on top of your station with fighter bays

Dirk the Average
Feb 7, 2012

"This may have been a mistake."


Fur20 posted:

how do i beat AIs that corvette spam in the mid game? i stop building corvettes and make bigger ships by the midgame but i attacked a fairly small and weak empire (on paper) and then they showed up with 200 fuckin t2 corvettes which completely shredded my t5 fleet

and this is on captain with low AI aggressiveness!

What type of ships were you using? Pure artillery isn't gonna do well against them because large weapons have poor tracking. Strike craft will do much better, but then you've got the issue of them potentially having PD, so you might need a lot of strike craft to make it work.

Also, what was the fleet power of each fleet? If their number was higher, that doesn't bode well for you.

ZypherIM
Nov 8, 2010

"I want to see what she's in love with."



Fur20 posted:

how do i beat AIs that corvette spam in the mid game? i stop building corvettes and make bigger ships by the midgame but i attacked a fairly small and weak empire (on paper) and then they showed up with 200 fuckin t2 corvettes which completely shredded my t5 fleet

and this is on captain with low AI aggressiveness!

How much fleet cap were you using compared to them? If you were using cruisers you should have had like 50 of them, destroyers 100, or battleships 25. Battleships would have had the roughest time because of evasion stuff, but most likely you just had a lot less material in the fight.

Kaal
May 22, 2002

JEREMY CORBYN BULLIED MY NAZI GRANDPA IN PRIMARY SCHOOL




YAAAAAASSSS

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



Fur20 posted:

how do i beat AIs that corvette spam in the mid game? i stop building corvettes and make bigger ships by the midgame but i attacked a fairly small and weak empire (on paper) and then they showed up with 200 fuckin t2 corvettes which completely shredded my t5 fleet

and this is on captain with low AI aggressiveness!

have corvettes in your fleets

seriously. i don't care what theorycrafting folks say about the relative strength of ship types, you are putting your shiny capital ships in danger against the AI if you don't have a swarm of corvettes as a front line to push the enemy corvettes away. corvettes generally focus on each other until the opposing swarm is broken; you don't need to have more corvettes than the enemy, you just need enough to hold them off so you can put down DPS with your other ships.

stellaris combat looks like a big random ball of death, but the positioning of units and the integrity of the front line are actually very important the same way they are in any paradox game. it is a very similar dynamic to late-game EU4; everyone knows artillery wins battles, but your armies are deeply hosed if they're just composed of artillery and nobody recommends all-artillery armies, whereas stellaris is opaque enough that you can argue for all-battleship fleets and not sound like a crazy person. that doesn't make them good.

now, in an unequal fight, artillery battleships are king. any situation where they can dish out damage at extreme range and conclude the fight before it enters "normal" range (<60 units) they are optimal in. but if they're going to have to stick around in a long fight they need screening.

Jazerus fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Jun 7, 2021

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

Yes, it's like a lava lamp.



Jazerus posted:

have corvettes in your fleets
...
everyone knows artillery wins battles, but your armies are deeply hosed if they're just composed of artillery and nobody recommends all-artillery armies, whereas stellaris is opaque enough that you can argue for all-battleship fleets and not sound like a crazy person. that doesn't make them good

This is objectively terrible advice. All artillery battleships will wipe the floor with nearly every fleet composition and deal outsized damage in an even fleet power fight. The only exception to this is all-corvette fleets, and those are easily dealt with using carrier battleships.

You can argue all day that the design intent was for people to use mixed fleets, but testing absolutely does not bear that out. On top of that, using all battleship fleets is simply easier in terms of thought power and clicks.

Cease to Hope
Dec 12, 2011
the forum where people post about insurance in case they have to kill someone is mad at this guy again lol

Jazerus posted:

have corvettes in your fleets

seriously. i don't care what theorycrafting folks say about the relative strength of ship types, you are putting your shiny capital ships in danger against the AI if you don't have a swarm of corvettes as a front line to push the enemy corvettes away.

this isn't true and just isn't borne out by testing. if you want something small out front to dogfight corvettes, that's what carriers and strike craft are for. plus, worst-case, if battleships get bogged by corvettes, you can just hit retreat. engaging with long-ranged BBs (which includes both artillery and carriers) means charging uphill under fire, while the BBs can just exit unfavorable fights at will for little cost other than the fleet being unavailable for a little bit.

if mixed fleets are more aesthetically pleasing to you, more power to you. but they're just not optimal in any way right now.

ZypherIM
Nov 8, 2010

"I want to see what she's in love with."



Note that unless you're one of the extremely rare competetive multiplayer types, none of this matters in the slightest. You don't need to be super cutting edge optimal.

Red Crown
Oct 20, 2008

Pretend my finger's a knife.

Gameplay 101 question: is there any way to disengage from a fight that isn't the emergency FTL retreat? I just lost 100% of my first game's fleet to a space monster because I couldn't figure out how to leave.

The Cheshire Cat
Jun 10, 2008



Fun Shoe

Yeah I just run mixed fleets of every ship type, don't even really do much to optimize them (hell sometimes I just let the auto-design do its thing in games when I'm feeling lazy, although this usually leads to a lot of weird problems) and have never had a problem stomping all over the AI. Optimizing your fleet is important when you are evenly matched but most Stellaris wars are won on the strategic level by just having the resources to support a larger fleet than your enemy.

Red Crown posted:

Gameplay 101 question: is there any way to disengage from a fight that isn't the emergency FTL retreat? I just lost 100% of my first game's fleet to a space monster because I couldn't figure out how to leave.

No, but with space monsters you might be able to order your fleet to leave the system before engaging in combat, since a lot of them will just hang out by the sun and not aggressively pursue arriving fleets.

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

Yes, it's like a lava lamp.



Red Crown posted:

Gameplay 101 question: is there any way to disengage from a fight that isn't the emergency FTL retreat? I just lost 100% of my first game's fleet to a space monster because I couldn't figure out how to leave.

Nah that button is what people mean when they say retreat. Civilian ships can disengage from combat and jump out of the system as per normal though, assuming they don't die or auto-retreat first.

Even so I'm surprised you lost everything. Were you running the No Retreat fleet doctrine as a Purifier or something? Or were you fighting something with a skull for a fleet power rating?

Red Crown
Oct 20, 2008

Pretend my finger's a knife.

PittTheElder posted:

Nah that button is what people mean when they say retreat. Civilian ships can disengage from combat and jump out of the system as per normal though, assuming they don't die or auto-retreat first.

Even so I'm surprised you lost everything. Were you running the No Retreat fleet doctrine as a Purifier or something? Or were you fighting something with a skull for a fleet power rating?

Skull I was looking for its fleet power and it took me just an extra second to realize the skull meant fleet power

Dirk the Average
Feb 7, 2012

"This may have been a mistake."


Red Crown posted:

Skull I was looking for its fleet power and it took me just an extra second to realize the skull meant fleet power

Oh, yeah, don't gently caress with leviathans until you are good and ready. The Curators can tell you how you stack up against various beasties and give you a nice damage bonus if you ask politely (i.e. with generous bribes grants).

Fur20
Nov 14, 2007

すご▞い!
君は働か░い
フ▙▓ズなんだね!


ZypherIM posted:

How much fleet cap were you using compared to them? If you were using cruisers you should have had like 50 of them, destroyers 100, or battleships 25. Battleships would have had the roughest time because of evasion stuff, but most likely you just had a lot less material in the fight.

i had 20v/15d/10c/7b i don't know maybe my comps just suck

speaking of emergency ftl retreat, im still fairly salty about how difficult it is logistically to attack into enemy territory because they just blink out and there's no way to tell where or when they'll respawn, and what rules the game uses to determine what areas are still valid for respawning. i'd also like a way to make it less likely that an individual ship will retreat, and a pony, and also three more wishes.

oh i'd also like it to be MUCH more obvious which factions will be involved in a war BEFORE it starts, because i wasted like 30 years in my last abandoned game because the hivemind i kept trying to vassalize had various mysterious benefactors on the opposite sides of the galaxy, preventing war weariness from building. i also wasn't able to complete the third time i went to war with them because another player who wasn't at war with me, declared war on my target near the end of my campaign, and somehow captured a station that i was already holding without being at war with me, so the game was like "yeah you don't control this player's final system gently caress you"

Fur20 fucked around with this message at 04:47 on Jun 7, 2021

ZypherIM
Nov 8, 2010

"I want to see what she's in love with."



Fur20 posted:

i had 20v/15d/10c/7b i don't know maybe my comps just suck

So I don't know what your fleet power worked out to (usually a better indicator than just raw naval cap), but you had 146 naval cap in the fight. Fleet power is a better comparison because it accounts for stuff like fire rate buffs and admirals and stuff. Anyways, they had a little over 1/3 more naval cap on the field than you, and while tech makes a difference that is a pretty significant amount of ground to try to make up. Depending on your designs some of your ships may have been less effective than normal against all corvettes (notably larger weapon slots have worse accuracy/tracking and so high evasion designs like corvettes are harder to hit).

I believe fleets prioritize retreating back to their home base, and then shipyards, and then other upgraded bases (I could be wrong on that, but seems to be the behavior I see). In terms of reducing their disengage chance you can
(a) fight around a black hole
(b) a starbase with the -disengage module
(c) bring a titan with the -disengage aura

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And Tyler Too!
Aug 15, 2007
ROCKET JOCKEY OWNS

Stichelin it is, thank you!


Red Crown posted:

Skull I was looking for its fleet power and it took me just an extra second to realize the skull meant fleet power

Leviathans don't mess around. That said some of them are stronger than others. Asteroid Hivers for instance can be taken out with as little as 3k fleet power provided you brought Destroyers with Flak Cannons, while the Enigmatic Fortress is going to need roughly 25k-30k depending on if your ships decide to focus-fire the defense platforms first. Everything else will need 20k-ish to bring down.

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