|
Nuclearmonkee posted:This is basically what happened in Greece except now the Germans and other Euro governments want their loan back. No one was or is willing to accept that the loans are bad and cannot be paid in full. I lived in Germany for a while and those dudes are such sticklers about the tiniest little bit of rules or paperwork that they spawned world famous author Franz Kafka - famous for writing about nightmare bureaucracy. They'll probably be cursing Greece and demanding their payment in full 200 years from now. Deals with them are like deals with the devil. They don't give a poo poo about bad faith or exigent circumstances. You signed ze papers goddamnit. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Jul 16, 2015 |
# ? Jul 16, 2015 18:34 |
|
|
# ? Apr 27, 2024 17:44 |
Moridin920 posted:I lived in Germany for a while and those dudes are such sticklers about the tiniest little bit of rules or paperwork that they spawned world famous author Franz Kafka - famous for writing about nightmare bureaucracy. It's great because after WW2 the Germans had a huge amount of their debt forgiven. Sovereign debt forgiveness has happened lots and lots of times throughout European history but it is apparently no longer allowed because ???
|
|
# ? Jul 16, 2015 18:41 |
|
Nuclearmonkee posted:This is basically what happened in Greece except now the Germans and other Euro governments want their loan back. No one was or is willing to accept that the loans are bad and cannot be paid in full. Christ.. what a mess. Thanks for the recap!
|
# ? Jul 16, 2015 18:43 |
|
Nuclearmonkee posted:It's great because after WW2 the Germans had a huge amount of their debt forgiven. Sovereign debt forgiveness has happened lots and lots of times throughout European history but it is apparently no longer allowed because ??? Cause international monetary policy is war by other avenues..what's going on isn't always what's going on. It was in everyone's best interest to prop up Germany after the war. Now it is in the majority's best interest to stop the bleeding while they can, since Germany is on the hook for most of the lending in what should be an economic union, and they want to preserve their economic power. There is no rulebook for this kind of thing, and if there were, it would be thrown out at the first adverse situation (kind of like what's happened actually). Countries are always trying to get a leg up, even if there's smiles and handshakes out in public. Also with money lending comes control, which is also why everyone is desperately trying to avoid a greek default/bankruptcy, but also debt forgiveness, both for the same reason. No debt, no control the worst thing is fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Jul 16, 2015 |
# ? Jul 16, 2015 18:54 |
|
Tautologicus posted:Also with money lending comes control, which is also why everyone is desperately trying to avoid a greek default/bankruptcy, but also debt forgiveness, both for the same reason. No debt, no control Yeah, very true. Just like a good capitalist worker is now in debt, a good way to control entire nations is to loan them cash and keep them perpetually indebted. That's basically the International Monetary Fund's purpose.
|
# ? Jul 16, 2015 19:02 |
|
In this case though didn't they essentially defraud the banks by cooking their books though? Like i understand that banks should eat the loss from bad loans that they understand were risky when they made them but if the people the banks loaned money to provided false information to get more money then it's more reasonable for the gov to step in and help em out.
|
# ? Jul 16, 2015 19:14 |
|
Moridin920 posted:I lived in Germany for a while and those dudes are such sticklers about the tiniest little bit of rules or paperwork that they spawned world famous author Franz Kafka - famous for writing about nightmare bureaucracy. lol this is so true. my german and austrian clients were the worst with regards to paperwork. took one of our guys 6 hours each sunday to deal with it. then they got pissed off because we billed that time.
|
# ? Jul 16, 2015 19:16 |
ArbitraryC posted:In this case though didn't they essentially defraud the banks by cooking their books though? Like i understand that banks should eat the loss from bad loans that they understand were risky when they made them but if the people the banks loaned money to provided false information to get more money then it's more reasonable for the gov to step in and help em out. Unless I am wrong which is quite possible I think Goldman Sachs (who Greece hired) manipulated the books using legal methods. http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/greek-debt-crisis-how-goldman-sachs-helped-greece-to-mask-its-true-debt-a-676634.html
|
|
# ? Jul 16, 2015 19:18 |
|
Yeah afaik the banks that approved the loans were the ones that were helping Greece 'adjust' their poo poo to look more loan worthy in the first place.
|
# ? Jul 16, 2015 19:21 |
Moridin920 posted:Yeah afaik the banks that approved the loans were the ones that were helping Greece 'adjust' their poo poo to look more loan worthy in the first place. Scams all the way down as is proper in modern investment banking.
|
|
# ? Jul 16, 2015 19:22 |
|
Nuclearmonkee posted:Unless I am wrong which is quite possible I think Goldman Sachs (who Greece hired) manipulated the books using legal methods.
|
# ? Jul 16, 2015 19:23 |
|
golden dawn to target ethnic germans
|
# ? Jul 16, 2015 19:33 |
|
Nuclearmonkee posted:Scams all the way down as is proper in modern investment banking. I'm copywriting 'hot potato economics.'
|
# ? Jul 16, 2015 19:37 |
|
Even if they forgave the debt, wouldn't the Greek economy still be in its unmanageable state pre-loans? Has anything changed to stop them flushing themselves down the toilet if the debt was removed?
|
# ? Jul 16, 2015 20:16 |
natetimm posted:Even if they forgave the debt, wouldn't the Greek economy still be in its unmanageable state pre-loans? Has anything changed to stop them flushing themselves down the toilet if the debt was removed? They have a primary surplus at the moment. Their tax code is a shambles as are their pension and health system but without the huge debt repayments they'd be fine. Also I don't think anyone is recommending they forgive the entire debt but if Golden Dawn gets into power, them just going "gently caress you not paying" would not surprise me.
|
|
# ? Jul 16, 2015 20:32 |
|
Tautologicus posted:20+ languages spoken on the continent, what could go wrong.. *rolls off thai child prostitute to make dumbest possible off-topic post*
|
# ? Jul 16, 2015 20:42 |
|
Down withe the neo-liberal swine! But first could you neoliberal swine give us some no strings attached loans?
|
# ? Jul 16, 2015 20:55 |
|
Bishop posted:Down withe the neo-liberal swine! At least pensioners are hosed either way.
|
# ? Jul 16, 2015 20:56 |
|
Fat sweaty greek concentration camp guards just don't have the same regard as well trained reichsmen in snazzy uniforms and Jackboots.
|
# ? Jul 16, 2015 21:49 |
|
Cubone posted:as i understand it, the european union was an attempt by every developed nation in the western world except for the united states and canada to get together and try to be almost as good as america, and it did not work, and then one of them immediately descended into a fascist shithole.just what happens when you reach too far i guess Ethno-religious nationalism is one hell of a drug.
|
# ? Jul 16, 2015 21:50 |
|
Nuclearmonkee posted:They have a primary surplus at the moment. Their tax code is a shambles as are their pension and health system but without the huge debt repayments they'd be fine. Also I don't think anyone is recommending they forgive the entire debt but if Golden Dawn gets into power, them just going "gently caress you not paying" would not surprise me. So I guess they just needed the loan to offset their massive debt? What has changed between now and the accrual of that debt that makes the economy better? Everything I read says it's still in the shitter and people can't find work.
|
# ? Jul 16, 2015 22:35 |
|
Agag posted:*rolls off thai child prostitute to make dumbest possible off-topic post* Idiot
|
# ? Jul 17, 2015 00:53 |
|
I actually am a Thai underage hooker, my customers often tell me the ways and secrets of the world in the post-coital afterglow..the ol boipussy for trade secrets gambit.
|
# ? Jul 17, 2015 03:32 |
|
I love the term boypussy
|
# ? Jul 17, 2015 03:34 |
Agag posted:*rolls off thai child prostitute to make dumbest possible off-topic post* The good news is that Tautologicus cannot return to the US without facing criminal charges.
|
|
# ? Jul 17, 2015 04:37 |
|
Toadvine posted:I love the term boypussy *boipussy
|
# ? Jul 17, 2015 04:46 |
|
Moridin920 posted:I lived in Germany for a while and those dudes are such sticklers about the tiniest little bit of rules or paperwork that they spawned world famous author Franz Kafka - famous for writing about nightmare bureaucracy. I like the funny observation by economist Mark Blythe on how his German father in law saves 20% of his pension each month. The whole crisis is a classic example of penny wise pound foolish since the cost of defusing the situation is much less than the potential domino effect.
|
# ? Jul 17, 2015 04:51 |
|
Agag posted:*boipussy No that's gay
|
# ? Jul 17, 2015 05:08 |
|
shitpussy
|
# ? Jul 17, 2015 05:09 |
|
afeelgoodpoop posted:for a mountainous island country they'd make one that was amphibious and maybe something cool like giving it legs like boston dynamics big dog. what makes you think a nation that builds cars that not even third world countries want could build a goddamn metal gear
|
# ? Jul 17, 2015 05:28 |
|
skeletonotherkin posted:The good news is that Tautologicus cannot return to the US without facing criminal charges. I'm not a fan of this interpretation of things tbh.
|
# ? Jul 17, 2015 05:31 |
|
The White Dragon posted:what makes you think a nation that builds cars that not even third world countries want could build a goddamn metal gear Zanzibar land pulled it off.
|
# ? Jul 17, 2015 06:47 |
|
Nuclearmonkee posted:It's great because after WW2 the Germans had a huge amount of their debt forgiven. Sovereign debt forgiveness has happened lots and lots of times throughout European history but it is apparently no longer allowed because ??? Because Greece wasn't ravaged by war and carpet bombed into oblivion. Their economy is not tuned to do anything other than borrow and spend and they throw a fit when asked to change anything. Other thing - it sets a bad precedent, why should say Slovakia bother balancing their economy if they can just kick back, relax and than wail about European solidarity when money runs out?
|
# ? Jul 17, 2015 09:20 |
|
natetimm posted:Even if they forgave the debt, wouldn't the Greek economy still be in its unmanageable state pre-loans? Has anything changed to stop them flushing themselves down the toilet if the debt was removed? Well one of the problems that Greece has is that it's not really super competitive when it comes to manufacturing, technology, or agricultural production. It's not true to say that they don't have any of those industries period, but in terms of global competition they don't really beat out any of the competition in markets which aren't basically automatically theirs (certain foods are only allowed to be called such if they come from Greece, tourism, etc). I can't recall the last time I saw a Greek-produced product that wasn't in the dairy aisle of a supermarket. Being in a single currency with Germany is also a large problem. There's effectively no way Greece can even hope to achieve fiscal parity with Germany even without the albatross of enormous sanctions. Greece will probably eventually leave the Euro if its members don't decide that keeping it in is worth the long term subsidy it will cost (which it might, geographically it's in a really bad place for a possible failed state) Sekenr posted:Because Greece wasn't ravaged by war and carpet bombed into oblivion. Their economy is not tuned to do anything other than borrow and spend and they throw a fit when asked to change anything. Other thing - it sets a bad precedent, why should say Slovakia bother balancing their economy if they can just kick back, relax and than wail about European solidarity when money runs out? You might as well say that forgiving Germany's debt would be an incentive to other countries to rely on belligerence as a way to shed debt (and one of Germany's reasons for electing Hitler and starting the war was their crippling WW1 debt) A Stupid Baby fucked around with this message at 09:31 on Jul 17, 2015 |
# ? Jul 17, 2015 09:29 |
|
Between Germany smashing the EU, China's stock market collapsing, and Putin isolating Russia, US hegemony is looking pretty healthy. Thanks World.
|
# ? Jul 17, 2015 09:34 |
|
A Stupid Baby posted:You might as well say that forgiving Germany's debt would be an incentive to other countries to rely on belligerence as a way to shed debt (and one of Germany's reasons for electing Hitler and starting the war was their crippling WW1 debt) Meh, you just wrote it for argument's sake surely you don't believe that someone will try lure EU into bombing them just to have their debt forgiven afterwards.
|
# ? Jul 17, 2015 09:40 |
|
A Stupid Baby posted:You might as well say that forgiving Germany's debt would be an incentive to other countries to rely on belligerence as a way to shed debt (and one of Germany's reasons for electing Hitler and starting the war was their crippling WW1 debt) Well, it worked.
|
# ? Jul 17, 2015 09:51 |
|
I'm Greek Hitler AMA.
|
# ? Jul 17, 2015 10:17 |
|
President Kucinich posted:Between Germany smashing the EU, China's stock market collapsing, and Putin isolating Russia, US hegemony is looking pretty healthy. A belligerent Germany running the EU through coercion is a threat to US hegemony. The EU as it stands now is pretty much what the US wants and it's probably why the IMF is suddenly blubbering over debt relief when up to now they've been stone cold mobsters when it comes to getting paid.
|
# ? Jul 17, 2015 10:26 |
|
|
# ? Apr 27, 2024 17:44 |
|
I kind doubt anyone in Greece has the work ethic required to be the next Hitler.
|
# ? Jul 17, 2015 11:13 |