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isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

nielsm posted:

For long-term storage you're better off using spinning rust. It doesn't leak electrons quite as much as high-density flash memory.

Aren't most SSDs rated to hold data for a year powered off? It'll probably spend most of the time plugged in for use given the description of the situation. Until the drive is filled and she starts on the second one, anyways.

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isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

Antivirus doing real time scanning?

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

Chimp_On_Stilts posted:

All launched through Steam.

Probably Steam checking for version/workshop updates or cloud saves or whatever. Maybe looking for C++ dependencies or something. Definitely test something outside of Steam if you can, or maybe in offline mode if you can't.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

Just let it dangle freely. Gotta air out that data to prevent bit rot!

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

oohhboy posted:

MD is MD and there is no way to change it as it is a key part of the OS as much as the windows folder when it comes to any application that goes to it.

Right-click Documents -> Properties -> Location tab. You've been able to move it since Win7 at least, not sure about XP/Vista.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

"Most" games are fine on a HDD, but unless you plan on never buying a game again I'd swing for the SSD because you never know what you'll buy that you wish had more speed. Technically you could have a smaller SSD and transfer games to it as you learn what benefits but that's more computer janitoring than I'd like to perform at this point, especially with the I/O bottleneck of transferring between drives and the sometimes issues with installation registries or whatever.

Honestly, a 1 TB is sufficient capacity for my current game usage so a cheap 2 TB ought to be more than sufficient for the near future. I'd probably go for it if I was building a new machine right now.

e: and even with those performance issues noted earlier in the thread, it should still cream a regular HDD in random reads which is what you're most likely to care about during gameplay.

isndl fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Jun 12, 2018

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

Atomizer posted:

The "never plan on buying a game again" part is nonsensical, because if you have both SSDs and HDDs then moving games between them is trivial, even for as-yet-nonexistent ~future~ games. Transferring games between drives is supported directly within Steam at this point, and I can't think of any other games that have weird registry issues when moving between drives (seriously, we're not using Windows 98 anymore dude.) As previously mentioned, random reads are of course better on SSDs but that's not necessarily of benefit to any given game; it all depends on whether or not the game relies on a ton of tiny files or huge map/texture/whatever files (in which case an HDD would suffice.) It's as simple as installing a game on your HDD, seeing if it causes micro-stuttering (which would indicate random access latency) and then moving it over to the SSD if that's the case.

Except it's not trivial, because amazingly enough not every game comes on Steam. Transferring a 60gb game to the SSD takes time, transferring it back takes even longer when you decide you want that space back for other things. Registry issues can happen because I'm not exclusively running games through Steam and I have some older titles that I still play. You might not think it's a problem, but I've dealt with juggling between a 256GB SSD and 1TB HDD for gaming and decided it's not worth the hassle myself, my next system would have a 1TB SSD as a minimum.

Console ports tend to be optimized for HDD performance, but for PC gaming you have a lot of games that were never given that attention, or you end up installing mods which is almost certainly a pile of loose files thrown into the mix. So your value proposition is going to swing a lot based on your gaming habits - do you habitually buy the latest 60GB AAA title at release, or do you sink more hours into individual games and possibly extend their replayability with mods? My usage definitely trends towards the latter, I'm not maxed out with the 1TB I already have let alone approaching the 4TB you're using.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

LRADIKAL posted:

Is there any notable hardware that only have the short form m.2 slots?

Don't have any specific models on hand but probably a laptop of some sort. Thin & Light Ultrabooks are getting to be pretty popular these days.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

NihilCredo posted:

Multiplayer non-massive games are fine on HDDs. Loading the map in 2 seconds instead of 20 serves no purpose since the match won't start until everybody is ready anyway.

What, never played a game where classes/weapons are capped and first come first serve?

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

NihilCredo posted:

Yeah, I hate that. I don't exactly enjoy arguing with a bunch of internet strangers about who gets to play the boring support class. One-shot Prisoner's Dilemma isn't a good game.

I do play Overwatch, but like the other dude, I also prefer Mystery Heroes for that reason.

Maybe you wouldn't hate it so much if you always loaded in first because you installed the game on the SSD.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

crazypenguin posted:

m.2 can be PCIe (NVMe) or SATA. Don't buy m.2 SATA.

Unless your workload can max out your bandwidth without becoming CPU bound (i.e. more than gaming and writing office documents), SATA is perfectly fine. No point spending an extra hundred bucks for speed you don't use, put that money into more space instead.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

Lockback posted:

960GB ADATA XPG SX8200 NVME $209 + you get 41 Rakuten Bucks
https://www.rakuten.com/shop/adata/...8200NP-960GT-C/

This is a budget NVME, but still has SLC cache and DRAM, it's reviewed quite well. This is from ADATA via Rakuten, so comes with a 5 year warranty and less likely to be a box filled with pig iron.

And two weeks ago I paid $180 for a 860 EVO. Prices crashing almost too fast.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

makere posted:

I used to run 120GB SSD as a dedicated Windows drive, would have to do clean up monthly and barely had any space left. With 250GB you will have a much nicer life with less time spent on managing free space (how cheap is your time?)

This isn't a daily driver machine he's building so I think tiny space should be fine, it's not like he's going to bother with other apps on a demo machine. At worst he can buy a new SSD in a few years after baseline capacity doubles a couple times for the same pricing.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

Unless your workloads require specifically high performance, the difference between two NVMe drives would be negligible. Just buy the one with more space since you'll always be able to find a use for space.

The discussion about NVMe vs SATA is because we get a lot of people recommending NVMe drives without examining the context. SATA covers everything the average user wants and is generally cheaper per gigabyte.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

If you have one of the OEM 840 EVO drives that never got a firmware update for the read speed loss over time you could do defrags to mitigate that, though that is less defrag and more rewrite all your data periodically.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

Lambert posted:

They released a special utility to mitigate the issue more effectively. Don't us a defragger.

Unless there was a later update to the utility that I missed, Samsung Magician doesn't recognize some OEM models as 840 EVO variants (PM851, I think it was?) and you're SOL.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

The only thing you need to worry about is making sure Windows realizes it's on a SSD now and that it needs to change the maintenance routine (stop defragging, use TRIM). Windows 7 needed you to run the Experience Index but I think 10 handles it automatically now.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

redeyes posted:

You guys aren't really getting the best parts of NVMe. It was designed for flash storage. It does away with the normal SATA commands and has a direct pipe to the nand, so to speak. It is much more efficient for a given NAND speed. There is actually a perceivable performance increase if you know where to look. Just talking day to day stuff. All im saying is, get it if you can afford it.

Is this the SSD equivalent of an audiophile? Do we need to do double blind tests?

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

BobHoward posted:

Their phrasing is awkward and over the top (it is not a direct pipe to NAND) but there are real performance benefits to NVME.

Oh, there's no question that it's a better protocol. What I do question is whether it's "a perceivable performance increase [for] day to day stuff", when day to day stuff is not hitting the limits of SATA bandwidth so you're left with latency differences measured in milliseconds.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

The problem I'm having with leftover SSDs isn't the protocol or form factor, the M.2 shape is compact which makes finding an adapter easy. It's just that the SSD isn't big enough to be worth the hassle, like my old desktop from time years ago has the 840EVO and it still works but it's the same size as this new leftover drive so replacing it is a lot of work cloning for no appreciable gain. I can put it in as a third drive but it's still marginal benefit.

I put it in a USB enclosure so I can use it as a bulk transfer drive but you have thumb drives hitting 256gb now so it's a lot fatter than commercial options in that role. Unless you're in the habit of resuscitating old machines for family members or something it's hard to justify reusing old storage when new drives can have so much more capacity.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

Klyith posted:

Hate: M.2 sata drives being sold at a premium because people who don't know the difference between M.2 and NVMe think they're the better drives. And then someone has to spend another $10 to buy that case thing.


Mild disdain: Knowing the difference and still buying a sata M.2 because "clean case with no wires" or "airflow", which to me falls into the same general category as liking RGB leds on everything. People can spend their money & trick out their ricer PC however they want, I ain't gonna stop them. But I'm gonna roll my eyes a bit. (The airflow thing is an extremely specious argument. Anyone who imagines a single sata cable strung in front / behind a fan will have detectable performance impact is crazy. And it's not difficult to keep thin cables out of the main air paths, even in an older case with limited routing options.)

M.2 SATA never gets sold at a premium over M.2 NVMe, the layman can't tell the difference and the NVMe controller costs more. If anything the layman is more likely to run into issues buying the NVMe drive and and discovering their M.2 slot is cheap and only supports SATA.

If you're hesitating on upgrading your system now because you might have to spend ten bucks on an adapter in the future, well I hope you're okay with never upgrading.

Eliminating the SATA cable is actually legitimately good because it removes a point of failure. Fixing drive issues by swapping the cable happens surprisingly often in threads.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

You can't just buy one of those laptop repair kits that have like a dozen types of screws for ten bucks?

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

M.2 is the form factor, you need to confirm that your prebuilt actually has a M.2 slot before even considering buying one. Assuming it does, check to see whether it supports M.2 SATA or M.2 NVMe or both.

The SATA protocol is perfectly acceptable for your use case, yes. Prices are falling so if you can snag a NVMe drive at the same price (and your prebuilt can use it) you might as well, but I don't believe it's worth a premium over SATA.

If you have no idea just buy a 2.5" SATA SSD and that should replace your current drive perfectly with no issues.

isndl fucked around with this message at 07:34 on Oct 25, 2018

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

I've mentioned it before but Samsung never put out firmware fixes for the OEM models of the 840 EVO. There's a bunch of devices out there that have no recourse, for example I believe there's a good number of Surfaces that used them and you can't swap out the SSD for an unaffected drive either.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

Unless you need more space right now I'd recommend waiting as long as you can because the prices are cratering. They'll probably continue to decline well into next year.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

Ika posted:

I know when I tried to install win7 on the P3500 it was such a pain to get drivers to work I ended up keeping it on my 830. But maybe that is just intel.

I'd bet your problem there was actually Windows 7, it didn't really have support for anything newer than SATA out of box. A clean install of Windows 10 today should have no issues.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

After getting burned by the 840 EVO I'm more inclined to wait and see how the QVO drives shake out rather than rushing to buy immediately. Prices are cratering anyways, no need to rush bulk storage just yet.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

Atomizer posted:

Yeah as we've discussed, there was an issue with that one type of NAND and you can't apply the fairly unique experience with the 840 Evo to every other SSD.

My concern is mostly that this is an expansion of what started with the 840 EVO: from triple layered cells it's now quad layered. I'm not saying it's inherently flawed, but it seems easily susceptible to unforeseen issues as any new tech. In any case I'd rather not deal with the hassle of firmware updates if there does turn out to be a problem, even if the problems are completely fixable.

Who knows, maybe Samsung has been sitting on this for so long precisely because they were doing extensive testing to avoid the 840 EVO situation. Given current price trends I'm still inclined to wait and see.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

DrDork posted:

With a SATA drive, you can get your replacement drive, slap it in, install an OS, recover off your locked drive and off you go. With a NVMe drive, you most likely only have one m.2 slot, so you have to grab a SATA drive as a temp deal, or find a working system with an open m.2 slot. Obviously not impossible, but more annoying than before.

If it's a laptop you'll probably need a USB enclosure to recover off the old drive either way. You can get a NVMe enclosure for thirty bucks on Amazon so it's not much more expensive than handling SATA.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

Atomizer posted:

Since you brought up a decade-old SSD, my question is, does NAND flash lose anything over time if it's not being used? I'm not talking about data retention; let's say you've got that old SSD in a backup laptop that you use once a month; is it accruing any age-related wear simply over time? Or say you took out the SSD and let it sit, empty, for a few years until you needed it for some project again; is there any problem with it just sitting there, unused?

If data retention is not an issue then I don't see anything that would cause problems; you might have garbage data and need to reformat but the drive should still be functional. I have USB sticks that are over a decade old that still work, mostly useless because why do I want a 128MB stick in 2018, but they work.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

Encrypted posted:

That might be true, but seems like USB-SATA adapter wont work with NVMe drive and there are quite a few usb-nvme adapter out there with unknown quality or chipset on them and most of them are 50~80 bucks.

I paid $30 for my NVMe enclosure, it took some digging to find it on Amazon because the search filtering is nonexistent but it works. I suppose it's still 'unknown quality' but even if I'm not getting full speed I can at least move data which is the important part.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

CatelynIsAZombie posted:

My 860 came in from amazon with a crushed box is there anything I can benchmark it with to make sure it's functional? Also what're some of the recommended methods for transferring my boot disk from the hdd to sdd? Do they need to be the same size?

SSDs don't suffer from getting knocked around the way HDDs do so if you can plug it in and it boots you should be completely fine. Use a tool like CrystalDiskMark if you want to benchmark performance.

There's a bunch of different tools for cloning a drive, Macrium Reflect Free usually gets recommended in this thread. Your original drive doesn't need to be the exact same size as your new drive, but things get more complicated if it's bigger than your new drive.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

If it's a 100MB partition on the drive that's probably the EFI partition, just leave it alone or you're going to have trouble booting.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

endlessmonotony posted:

128gb is fine for a boot drive. In fact, it's drat near perfect. Any kind of recovery is easier when your data isn't on your boot drive. If both drives are a SSD, you won't notice the difference.

Also Raid0 is the perfect way to backup your data, that way you can make sure the important things are safe.

Unless you routinely have to flatten your Windows installation, forcing yourself to save files to another drive doesn't help much because that drive is still susceptible to failure. Back up critical data to multiple drives, or use a cloud service that handles it for you. If you have proper backups, recovering data is just as easy regardless of whether you have one big drive or separate ones. Installing apps to a second drive also tends to suck if you do reinstall Windows because now you have a whole lot of programs without expected registry entries and it's a giant mess where you have to reinstall all the apps anyways, might as well go for the complete clean install.

Raid0 is the worst way to back up your data because it has zero redundancy (i.e. if any drive in the array fails all data is lost). You may be thinking of Raid1 which mirrors the data on each disk, but you don't use Raid1 with mismatched drives - that 128GB SSD would limit you to a 128GB RAID1 array. LRADIKAL is right in that the old SSD should go into the trash, unless there's an old laptop or something lying around that could use a free upgrade.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

Nothing with the 860 EVO in particular, NAND flash is in oversupply so SSD prices are down across the board. They're expected to continue dropping well into next year.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

Z-Bo posted:

USERBENCHMARK.COM takes about 90 seconds to run. I'm not sure what would be the point of spending so much money and not tuning the PC.

Benchmarking isn't tuning. He wanted temp drops and he got them, running benchmarks at this point is an idle curiosity thing since he's not going to be making adjustments on a passive cooler.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

Tortilla Maker posted:

My SSD drive looks to have pooped it’s pants.

It no longer shows up on my bios screen on start-up even though all cabling appears to be properly intact.

Is it still true that files on a pooped SSD can’t be recovered?

Depending on the model there might be some trick to get a last gasp out of it, like letting it sit in BIOS overnight. But it's probably hosed and the files generally irrecoverable, the data bits are not stored in a fashion that swapping a controller can let you read the data again.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

redeyes posted:

Dude, no one is burning their NAND out. 99% of the time failure is controller fuckery. You guys are just spinning your wheels.

Regardless of the lifespan of the NAND, the controller is going to shuffle bits for whatever magical reason in the background and you don't want your IO to slow to a crawl because the controller is too busy shuffling. Overprovisioning guarantees known free space for the controller to do its job, especially important on older systems that don't natively support SSDs to issue TRIM commands.

isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

redeyes posted:

This does not happen with consumer workloads.

Right, because consumers are known for never filling their drives to capacity right before Windows decides to install updates or whatever.

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isndl
May 2, 2012
I WON A CONTEST IN TG AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CUSTOM TITLE

redeyes posted:

If you are that low on space you have other problems.

Sometimes it's someone else's problems. I'd much rather overprovision a computer that I'm handing off to parents/spouse/family etc. than get a complaint about things running slowly followed by working tech support into my schedule for a preventable problem.

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