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Letter from CARB to VW http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/in_use_compliance_letter.htm
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# ? Sep 19, 2015 00:42 |
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# ? Apr 27, 2024 17:48 |
The Washington Post article on it says this isn't exactly a VW-exclusive deception.quote:Automakers have a long history of using defeat devices. In 1998, the EPA reached a $1 billion settlement with diesel-engine companies such as Caterpiller, Renault and Volvo for installing equipment that defeated emission controls. It was, at the time, the largest U.S. civil penalty for violating environmental law. The EPA said the firms installed the devices in an estimated 1.3 million engines in tractor trailers and large pick-ups.
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# ? Sep 19, 2015 02:23 |
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Mr. Apollo posted:Question for you; I have a 2013 S4 and there's an annoying squeak coming from somewhere in the rear passenger area. It happens if the rear seats are up or down and usually only occurs when I hit a bump. Is this something that's a know issue or has a simple fix? My dealer is about a 40 minute drive away and I really don't want to waste a Saturday morning going out there only to be told ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ we don't know where it's coming from, sorry. I have seen a couple tickets come through with a noise from the rear, however it's usually a rattle, and I think we were replacing struts. My general rule of rattles is as long as it is very noticeable (as in if you were to tell it to a passenger, they would be able to pick up on it) or you can duplicate it on the service drive with a tech/advisor then you'll have a better chance of them not throwing up the "Could not duplicate, operating to manufacturers design".
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# ? Sep 19, 2015 14:28 |
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keegles posted:I have seen a couple tickets come through with a noise from the rear, however it's usually a rattle, and I think we were replacing struts. I'll call the dealer and see what they say.
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# ? Sep 19, 2015 21:22 |
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Mr. Apollo posted:It's pretty easy to duplicate, just drive over a bump at normal city road speeds and yeah, it's pretty loud too. Take a video. Whenever I had bullshit intermittent issues with my Hyundai, video proof made proving the issues to the dealer that much simpler.
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# ? Sep 20, 2015 00:52 |
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The emissions poo poo on current diesels sold in the US make them unreliable, down on power, and down consumption wise compared to their Euro counterparts. It's a sad thing.
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# ? Sep 20, 2015 02:56 |
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Diesels are pretty poo poo in small vehicles anyway - you only get very marginally better economy than a modern petrol engine. They make a lot more sense in big executive cars and SUVs
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# ? Sep 20, 2015 03:12 |
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Yeah it was terrible getting 48 mpg in my TDI beetle this summer driving the 2000 miles from SC to Idaho. I don't know how to handle how poo poo diesels are in small cars. Makes way more sense to get 35 in a gas.
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# ? Sep 20, 2015 03:23 |
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dissss posted:Diesels are pretty poo poo in small vehicles anyway - you only get very marginally better economy than a modern petrol engine. I had/have a BMW 335D - my '16 GTI is doing better daily gas mileage by 3-4mpg (26-28mpg vs 32ish) and trip MPG is about the same with maybe a nod to the BMW (40ish mpg). Emissions issues in the US are effectively the kiss of death for the thing. There is a huge weight and power difference between the two, which kinda makes the 335D impressive.
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# ? Sep 20, 2015 03:23 |
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thatguy posted:Yeah it was terrible getting 48 mpg in my TDI beetle this summer driving the 2000 miles from SC to Idaho. I don't know how to handle how poo poo diesels are in small cars. Makes way more sense to get 35 in a gas. There is way less relative difference than that though provided you are comparing with the more modern VW petrol engines
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# ? Sep 20, 2015 03:32 |
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dissss posted:Diesels are pretty poo poo in small vehicles anyway - you only get very marginally better economy than a modern petrol engine. This is not true. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=21892&id=21896&id=21894 http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=35349&id=35354
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# ? Sep 20, 2015 04:42 |
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The 2.5 does not count as a modern engine - check the 1.4l TSI vs the 2l TDI
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# ? Sep 20, 2015 04:49 |
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We just bought our 2011 Golf tdi last February so I'm pretty bummed about this and the impending drop in value. I love driving the car; it handles great, rides great, loads of torque, and the great fuel economy is a bonus. I have no intention of bringing the car to a dealer for this recall since I don't see how it won't ruin it. I'll only have it done if my state requires it in order to renew the registration.
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# ? Sep 20, 2015 05:53 |
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So. My car is on the list for this. People are recoiling in fear from the effects of the recall, but no one seems to have said how much it'll actually affect performance - does anybody know that yet? I mean, I'd like to be able to make my car burn cleaner, because it's more people than me who are affected by this.
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# ? Sep 20, 2015 06:12 |
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I got a letter from VW "in cooperation with" the EPA for an ECU update in April (and it was not sufficiently scarily worded, because I didn't take it in) so there have to be people on the road with un-defeat-deviced ECUs already. Someone must have noticed their performance or milage take a poo poo afterward.
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# ? Sep 20, 2015 08:41 |
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dissss posted:Diesels are pretty poo poo in small vehicles anyway - you only get very marginally better economy than a modern petrol engine. Blasphemer. 50 MPG is not 'marginally better'
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# ? Sep 20, 2015 12:24 |
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Nevergirls posted:I got a letter from VW "in cooperation with" the EPA for an ECU update in April (and it was not sufficiently scarily worded, because I didn't take it in) so there have to be people on the road with un-defeat-deviced ECUs already. Someone must have noticed their performance or milage take a poo poo afterward. I had that first flash done and actually noticed an increase in responsiveness and smoother shifting, as did many other owners in these and other forums. I also saw reports of decreased MPG after the flash, though I don't really track this myself due to my 10 min commute.
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# ? Sep 20, 2015 15:57 |
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I can almost guarantee that vw hasn't been activating the egr system, and it more or less forces readiness. My assumption on this is based off of the fact that pre common rail (08 and earlier) had issues with egr clogging up, then the newer common rail somehow hasn't.. Actually in the 5 years I've worked for vag, I've never seen an egr fault on a common rail. However roommates work for bmw, and they have a number of diesels with blocked egr issues. Egr does drop mpgs a tad, as well as power. Also with it being a recall, nobody's forcing you to go in and have it flashed ;p Good read http://www.weatherimagery.com/blog/diesel-engine-egr-bad/ keegles fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Sep 20, 2015 |
# ? Sep 20, 2015 16:08 |
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I just crossed 50k miles in my 2010 GTI. I got it in June 2012 when it had 36k miles on it, so i'm averaging a bit over 4k miles/year, almost all of them in stop/go city driving. It's a 6-speed, I've done the 40k mile service and change the oil once/year, but haven't done anything beyond that. Is there anything beyond that I should be doing? It doesn't look like the next major service is until 60k miles which at this rate I won't hit for a while.
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# ? Sep 20, 2015 16:11 |
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I read that a class actin was filed in CA over this yesterday. I'm really bummed about it. We've got a 2014 TDI jetta that we've loved. I'm not exactly happy with the "don't ever get it updated" angle as driving something that pollutes that bad would grate on me in a bad way. loving hell VW, I really liked that car.
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# ? Sep 20, 2015 16:13 |
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VelociBacon posted:Can't tell if you're kidding but for what it's worth it's all the assholes having 2+ kids that are going to ruin this planet. I was asking as a rhetorical question but FWIW I wouldn't bring my car in for it to become less fuel efficient when those vehicles are still way way way less harmful than a majority of the vehicles out there. I was joking. I hope this hits VW hard enough that they put on a huge sale when I'm ready to buy my next car.
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# ? Sep 20, 2015 16:33 |
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Cyrano4747 posted:I read that a class actin was filed in CA over this yesterday. I'm really bummed about it. We've got a 2014 TDI jetta that we've loved. I'm not exactly happy with the "don't ever get it updated" angle as driving something that pollutes that bad would grate on me in a bad way. How bad is the pollution without the update? Is it just the EPA being overzealous compared to the EU? Or is it putting out some really bad stuff?
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# ? Sep 20, 2015 16:44 |
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Residency Evil posted:I just crossed 50k miles in my 2010 GTI. I got it in June 2012 when it had 36k miles on it, so i'm averaging a bit over 4k miles/year, almost all of them in stop/go city driving. It's a 6-speed, I've done the 40k mile service and change the oil once/year, but haven't done anything beyond that. Is there anything beyond that I should be doing? It doesn't look like the next major service is until 60k miles which at this rate I won't hit for a while. Brake fluid every 2 years or so. Coolant probably around 60k. I changed the transmission oil and spark plugs at around 75k, though I don't think there's anything specified for those. I'm pretty sure those have a timing chain, so no interval for replacing that, though there might be some inspection that should be preformed.
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# ? Sep 20, 2015 16:48 |
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Cyrano4747 posted:I read that a class actin was filed in CA over this yesterday. I'm really bummed about it. We've got a 2014 TDI jetta that we've loved. I'm not exactly happy with the "don't ever get it updated" angle as driving something that pollutes that bad would grate on me in a bad way. Hashtag Banterzone posted:How bad is the pollution without the update? Is it just the EPA being overzealous compared to the EU? Or is it putting out some really bad stuff? Edit: Here's the EPA report, these and other similar questions are answered in it: http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf bizwank fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Sep 20, 2015 |
# ? Sep 20, 2015 16:56 |
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bizwank posted:Here's the firm that filed it if you want to join: http://www.hbsslaw.com/newsroom/Hagens-Berman-Investigating-Volkswagen-Audi-for-Emissions-Cheating-Software-Polluting-Cars bennyfactor posted:Here's probably why they did it— for diesels, the EU regs target low Oxides of Nitrogen and Carbon Monoxide production, and don't even care about non-methane organic compounds. The EPA average of Tier 2 (Bin 5) has a stark limit on NMOG, even lower than the limit for Euro V petrol engines; the EPA limits on the values Europe cares about are multiples higher. last page, 10- 40 times greater seems a bit extreme. Being that the EPA is a govt org. with a political agenda I would take everything they say with a ton of salt.
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# ? Sep 20, 2015 17:28 |
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Lord of Garbagemen posted:last page, 10- 40 times greater seems a bit extreme. Being that the EPA is a govt org. with a political agenda I would take everything they say with a ton of salt. Bastards wanting to improve the quality of the air and water. It's my right as an American to pollute as much as I want and eat/drink/breathe whatever pollutants I want I've been trying to keep up with the tread on TDIClub and it's full of complete loving nuts. I know a few of my hobbies(cars and fishing mainly) have a lot of hardcore republican freep types, but god drat. e: I really want to know where these fuckers claiming 50+mpg live. Downhill with a tailwind both ways at 45mph kind of stuff? fknlo fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Sep 20, 2015 |
# ? Sep 20, 2015 17:36 |
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fknlo posted:e: I really want to know where these fuckers claiming 50+mpg live. Downhill with a tailwind both ways at 45mph kind of stuff? Hyper-mileing assholes who follow literally a foot behind everything else on the road
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# ? Sep 20, 2015 17:58 |
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Bajaha posted:Take a video. Whenever I had bullshit intermittent issues with my Hyundai, video proof made proving the issues to the dealer that much simpler.
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# ? Sep 20, 2015 18:14 |
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I can regularly get 50-51 highway, but my TDI is a unicorn.
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# ? Sep 20, 2015 18:34 |
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This seems to be a case of fudging it to pass lab/static emissions tests, cars are failing to meet emissions standards in europe too. I guess VW were the first ones to get caught actually messing with it. For the people worrying if your car is ruined, it isn't, most diesel cars can't stay under the emissions level outside a test environment in more strenuous conditions. Such as going up a hill. Diesel vehicles are getting banned in Paris by 2020 apparently. http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/ICCT_PEMS-study_diesel-cars_2014_factsheet_EN.pdf
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# ? Sep 20, 2015 19:00 |
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bizwank posted:That first ECU flash was an attempt by VAG to explain away the increased emissions by claiming they were caused by technical issues and/or unanticipated use scenarios. Only after that update failed to bring emissions back down to proper levels and they were threatened with their 2016 models getting black-listed did they come clean about the defeat device. There's no way that first flash took out the defeat device or they would have done it on the EPA's test cars too, and not gotten caught (in this way). keegles posted:Egr does drop mpgs a tad, as well as power. CommieGIR posted:I can regularly get 50-51 highway, but my TDI is a unicorn.
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# ? Sep 20, 2015 19:02 |
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Lord of Garbagemen posted:last page, 10- 40 times greater seems a bit extreme. Being that the EPA is a govt org. with a political agenda I would take everything they say with a ton of salt. http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/WVU_LDDV_in-use_ICCT_Report_Final_may2014.pdf I didn't read the whole thing because it's the weekend but the summary says 5-35x allowed NOx from the two TDI VW's (test cars 1 & 2), and all those measurements were taken on a warm car so maybe the EPA adjusted that to be more realistic, ie. averaging in cold starts and short trips? Regardless, if keeping our finite amount of atmosphere healthy to be living in is a "political agenda" then it's one I fully support. CommieGIR posted:I can regularly get 50-51 highway, but my TDI is a unicorn. bizwank fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Sep 20, 2015 |
# ? Sep 20, 2015 19:10 |
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CommieGIR posted:I can regularly get 50-51 highway, but my TDI is a unicorn. What the hell is the speed limit where you live? It's generally 60-70 on what I drive here and I do a blistering 5 over at most. Hell, on trips to Colorado in winter I'll usually get low to maybe mid 30's with the occasional tank in the high 20's. Yeah, that's winter fuel in cold conditions at 80mph but my buddies GLI doesn't do much worse on the same drive.
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# ? Sep 20, 2015 19:15 |
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fknlo posted:What the hell is the speed limit where you live? It's generally 60-70 on what I drive here and I do a blistering 5 over at most. Hell, on trips to Colorado in winter I'll usually get low to maybe mid 30's with the occasional tank in the high 20's. Yeah, that's winter fuel in cold conditions at 80mph but my buddies GLI doesn't do much worse on the same drive. My wife and I routinely get 40-43mpg driving from NC to Kentucky and NC to Florida. All we really do is stay ~70mph, nothing too special.
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# ? Sep 20, 2015 19:40 |
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fknlo posted:What the hell is the speed limit where you live? It's generally 60-70 on what I drive here and I do a blistering 5 over at most. Hell, on trips to Colorado in winter I'll usually get low to maybe mid 30's with the occasional tank in the high 20's. Yeah, that's winter fuel in cold conditions at 80mph but my buddies GLI doesn't do much worse on the same drive. That sounds terrible. In my 11 TDI I would regularly average tanks in the mid to high 30's on summer tires and driving down the 80mph toll.
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# ? Sep 20, 2015 19:57 |
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fknlo posted:What the hell is the speed limit where you live? It's generally 60-70 on what I drive here and I do a blistering 5 over at most. Hell, on trips to Colorado in winter I'll usually get low to maybe mid 30's with the occasional tank in the high 20's. Yeah, that's winter fuel in cold conditions at 80mph but my buddies GLI doesn't do much worse on the same drive.
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# ? Sep 20, 2015 21:27 |
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bizwank posted:As far as I understand it air resistance increases exponentially with speed, ie. the faster you go the harder the engine has to work to maintain speed and the more fuel you burn per mile. I believe the average automobile is most efficient at 55-60 mph, although specific models have been designed to reduce drag as much as possible in order to post really high mpg ratings, which is why the Prius looks so weird and many hybrids following it had basically the same shape. If you're regularly doing 70-75 on winter fuel then yeah you're going to get worse mpg then I do at 60 mph on standard diesel (I don't think we even get winter fuel in Seattle), and even worse if you're braking and accelerating a lot on that drive vs maintaining a steady speed. All of this depends 100% on gearing. A more accurate statement would be that xyz engine is at it's most efficient at a specific %load at a specific RPM, and the car is then most efficient in it's highest gear at that load and RPM.
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# ? Sep 20, 2015 23:01 |
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CommieGIR posted:Blasphemer. 50 MPG is not 'marginally better' Rated extra urban 2l TDI 110 - 4l/100km (58.8 mpg) 1.4l TSI 103 - 4.4l/100km (53.5 mpg) Or course neither will get that outside of ideal conditions, but the margin of difference between them is pretty close to real world
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# ? Sep 20, 2015 23:29 |
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fknlo posted:Bastards wanting to improve the quality of the air and water. It's my right as an American to pollute as much as I want and eat/drink/breathe whatever pollutants I want i get average 45 mixed and 52 or 53 on the highway. Lord of Garbagemen fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Sep 21, 2015 |
# ? Sep 21, 2015 00:21 |
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# ? Apr 27, 2024 17:48 |
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dissss posted:Rated extra urban The TSI is a fairly new and expensive tech versus a common and proven TDI tech. Yes, TSI can do it. With immense computerization and highly specialized tech. The TDI can do it mechanically.
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# ? Sep 21, 2015 01:20 |